Machiavellian Parenthood
"Here a question arises: whether it is better to be loved than feared, or the reverse. The answer is, of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, it is much safer to be feared than to be loved. [...] Love is held together by a chain of obligation which, since men are a sorry lot, is broken on every occasion in which their own self-interest is concerned; but fear is held together by a dread of punishment which will never abandon you." -Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince.
I've been meaning to write an essay-rant with this title for a number of months now, despite the fact that I've realized since then that there are probably a number of philosophers that are better suited to my analogy than Machiavelli himself. Regardless, I'm writing on the grounding premise of the political philosophy he represents, expressed nicely in the above quote: that a ruler would rather be feared than loved. It is well understood that an infinite number of analogies have gotten screwed up because the structures of Family, Politics and Theology have been confused with one another. In an attempted bypass of this screwed-up-ed-ness, I shall note early on that I admit that this is a very limited analogy. I mean only to address that which I quote here. That having been said:
Me being an aspiring skeptic as well as a rebellious teenager, the analogous parallel I intend to draw is between this and a certain branch of... shall we say, parental philosophy, with which I am particularly familiar. The premise of this philosophy is that it is better for children to be raised with a foundation of healthy fear (which is constant) instead of solely love (which is fickle). I'm afraid this wording leaves a regrettably bitter taste in our mouths. Maybe only for me. But I believe most of us like to think that love is the best way. Even those that support Machiavellian Parenthood would like to think that they think that love is the best way. Even Machiavelli said that "every prince ought to wish to be considered kind rather than cruel." It is obvious that Love is desirable- preferable- covetable. Yet practically, this is idealistic, they would say. Yet Love cannot operate on its own. Yet Love is not the most orderly, healthy, successful way to run a government- to run a family. It is then that rulers resort to the constant power of Fear.
In defense of those parents that support this philosophy, the idea is absolutely not to make the children hate the parents. In fact, the case is quite the contrary: the entire idea of using fear is to properly check the people's- the children's- anger. Since "this can be said about the generality of men [and by extension, children], that they are ungrateful, fickle, simulators and deceivers, avoiders of danger [and] greedy for gain," children will always be upset, angry, and have a desire to rebel, without regard to the quality of the parent's upbringing. Both love and hatred lead to uprising (whether it directly causes or simply allows it is the difference), so it is best to maintain fear above all else (in most parents' cases, hopefully, for the sake of p/maternal love) in order to prevent the children from rebelling and thereby hurting themselves as well as the parents:
"A prince must nevertheless make himself feared in such a manner that he will avoid hatred, even if he does not acquire love; since to be feared and not to be hated can very well be combined."
From a parental perspective, it really is a very appealing idea. A very healthy idea. A very orderly and successful idea. It seems that it would raise much kinder, more balanced, respectful children if they grew up with a sort of reverence for their parents. If they were made to regard their parents not with the negligible tie of friendship, but with the iron core of fear, in the hope that eventually the grown child will understand the merit behind its utilization. This gives the parent, who almost unquestionably has the greater overall wisdom, knowledge, and general know-how, the ability to steer their children in the best direction they know without the uncredited opposition of the child, who clearly does not know what is best for him. If a child thinks of his parent as a mere equal, a mere friend, as is argued would be the case in a love-only relationship, the moment the child cannot see that the parent is acting for his own good will, he will rebel, casting away the parent's plan of good will and embracing his own downfall. Any good parent would argue that whatever disciplinary means needs to be taken to prevent this end is justified, correct? ...um, correct?
I don't believe it to be that simple. I believe that there is a beauty concerning parenthood that surpasses the pessimism of Absolutism by Divine Right. I believe that there is as more satisfactory approach that may be taken concerning the upbringing of children that would yield a much deeper ultimate respect for parents while maintaining the love-based relationship. Friendship. I believe that the necessary measures toward preventing one's children's 'self-destruction' would rightly be a lifestyle, not a bunch of fear-inspiring single actions.
I do not believe that children are stupid. They- we, I suppose- may be slightly plebeian at times, particularly at younger ages. It is simply human nature to be selfish. Even if objectively we would agree with our parents, personally, of course, punishment is never fun, so naturally we are opposed. But even plebeians may learn, and it is the prince's duty to educate them. It is the prince's duty to provide an example, a lifelong example. It is the prince's duty to attempt to help the plebeians understand what is right and why it is right. It is simply wrong, in my mind, to keep from telling children the motivation for parental action simply because one believes the child will not understand or because there is no need for the child to know (particularly at an older age). I believe in the freedom of speech, that all people have the right to express their opinions and reason it out with their leaders until authority (the parents) must make the ultimate decision. Yes, the children will be upset. I agree with at least that piece of the above philosophy, that the children will never be satisfied completely. The children will inevitably become angry. Mopey. Annoyed. Cranky. Rude. That's what children do, unfortunately. That's what people do. But they deserve their voice. They deserve the chance to explain themselves. Even if they can't do it very well. Even if they don't get their say in the end. And they deserve the chance to be explained to. They deserve to be informed of the reasons their autonomy is being infringed on, even if they do not agree with those reasons.
All this is simply a very basic, foundational mutual respect. Believe it or not, children and parents are equals. Like men and women in a marital relationship, they play different roles, but neither group is better than the other. If children can see that their parents respect them, they are altogether more likely to respect their parents in the same way, by simply following the example. And not only are they more likely to respect their parents, but also the rest of their friends, teachers, etc.
Furthermore, a parent must avoid inciting fear in their children in the hope that they will abstain from a certain action as a result, because this teaches the children absolutely nothing. Imagine this example: a 12-year-old boy comes home after school and immediately plops himself in front of the TV and starts playing video games. The mother understands that he must do his homework first, because otherwise homework will get neglected and end up getting done late at night with more apathy than effort. What must she do to prevent her son from harming himself? The "Machiavellian" method would be to tell him that he will be grounded if he goes to play videogames before doing his homework again. The mother may have told him to do this out of love, but does this teach the boy that he should not play video games before doing homework? NO! He simply learns that he will be punished for disobeying his mother, that she is the enemy keeping him from videogames and forcing him into something he does not want to do. He may obey, but it will be solely because he does not want to be grounded. (Positive incentives are just as bad: "if you do your homework when you're supposed to for a week, I'll give you chocolate" results in the child doing his homework solely because he wants chocolate. This is more along the lines of the "love" Machiavelli was referring to: that is not love, that is good favor. That is sucking up to your children, which is also not right). I believe it would be an altogether more constructive method to ask him to pause the game and explain to him something like this: that he would 1. have to spend a lot less time doing it 2. do better in school if he did his homework when he isn't tired, and 3. it would create a greater overall sense of happiness because he wouldn't have it restricting him all afternoon. Then, crucially, the mother must wait for his response and attentively consider whatever points he brings up, even being willing to concede to his path of action if it is reasonable enough. Imagine the boy said that he could do his homework after dinner because he isn't tired yet then, and he doesn't feel "restricted" by his homework at all. One could answer by telling him that it would still take him a much longer time after dinner because he would be more tired than now, and that he would want to do it even less then. One could tell him that he would feel a lot happier playing his videogames if he had just finished his homework than if he had to go to bed after doing his homework. One could tell him that he would have a greater sense of accomplishment. There are an endless number of contentions to bring up against his argument. The parent does not need to use all of them. If the parent truly believes that their path of action is superior, they should be willing to defend it. Once the argument has been brought down to a contention or two, the mother may simply say that she, as the authority, finds the points on her side of the argument stronger and that he must go do his homework. And at this point, he must obey (I'll end the hypothetical scenario here, as there are a number of ways he could react that would have to be dealt with correctly, but his initial reaction to the correct method is probably not very different from the initial reaction to Machiavellian action).
It seems like it takes a lot longer this way on paper, but really it only takes a minute or two as opposed to thirty seconds, and treating children in this way helps the child recognize that the parent actually has reasons for doing what she does and helps him feel respected, allowing him to develop respect for her. It helps him think through the reasons he has for wanting to do what he does without any external prompting, and recognize that he must have reasons the parent must deem superior in order to win the argument. Yet it retains the one and I believe only benefit of fear: teaching a respect for authority.
Hence, all this to explain this: that fear and hatred must both be avoided at all costs. Love is something much stronger, much better, and more long-lasting. It is not simply good favor, as Machiavelli uses it in his political context, it the long-lasting bond of family and deep friendship. It is more moral. It is as or even more effective. I do not believe there is any reason other than self-centered, short-sighted, lazy thoughtlessness to support Machiavellian Parenthood.
"Believe it or not, parents and children are equals."
ReplyDeleteA highly inflammatory statement, which is held together by the variable word "equal." What is an equal? Certainly not someone who takes direction from someone else.
I can tell this is a response to your life, not from any particular details, but because you want your parents to debate you on everything they tell you to do. You're on to something here, but having a debate with a kid who won't understand about his life choices isn't going to help anything. At TBCS, we learned critical thinking, so this system would work for us, but human nature would screw this system up with most families. In your example, video games provide instant indulgence and gratification. The kid is offered intangible happiness after certain drudgery, and is already annoyed after his mom orders him to pause. What's he going to choose? There's no battle of wits here; it degrades to the point (and you pointed this out yourself) where the parent pulls the judge card and ends it arbitrarily. So enjoy your freedom of speech, but those who don't know how to use it should not be given the opportunity. Machiavelli dealt with the beasts among us while you and I enjoy the fruits of intellectual enlightenment.
Everyone SHOULD be taught how to use it. I don't believe we are any less beastly than other people, though perhaps they have not recieved the same ...intellectual training, if you get what I'm saying.
ReplyDelete"Debate" isn't necessarily what I was getting at. Debate is about winning. Conversation, yes, that's more what I was getting at. Trying to understand each other. Not treating children as if they don't think at all, if they do; and if they really don't, because I'd suppose most kids simply don't think (emotion/logic, human nature) they SHOULD be challenged to think.
When I say that children and parents are equals I don't mean to say that the children should be given the power to ground their parents. That's silly. It's like I said regarding marital relationships: there are different natural roles, but neither is inherently greater than the other. Both people need to be considered equally, as individuals, not units.
Basically, I'm going for deontology here, Stick. Even if the parent ultimately needs to make the decision, it's WRONG not to consider the child's thoughts, not to let the child express himself first. If he doesn't want to express himself, fine then, but he should be given the opportunity.
(Deontology was Alex's value criterion on the case that she was "going to lose" so she wouldn't let me watch but she won anyway.........that was random hahaha.)
ReplyDeleteIn general I like this.
Everybody has the capability to say WHY they want something, Stick. (At least, assuming they can talk...even if they can't, they deserve an explanation. Tatiana can't tell me exactly why she thinks she should be allowed to stand on the table. But that doesn't mean that when I say, "Tatiana, get off the table" - and proceed to lift her down if she disobeys - I don't have a reason to say "Tatiana, get off the table, because otherwise you could fall and get hurt." Will she understand? Maybe not. Will she get on the table again? Of course. Ultimately, though, how will she ever learn that there's a reason/consequence for her actions, or how to give a reasoning behind her action, if she doesn't learn from her parents - in this case, her older sister, actually - how to do so.)
People may not be good debaters, good at defending their point, or particularly eloquent, but a five-year-old can say "I want a treat because it tastes good" "No, I *won't* be full later" "But I'll brush my teeth!".
I think the only challenge is when you have a situation where the child feels like they've "won" the "argument" - convincing me he can have a treat, for example - but the parent (or older sister hahaha) who probably *does* know better (at least, has more experience in life) still says no. At which point, assuming you've considered - or at least, listened to - the child's point of view, you HAVE to resort to a punishment or a "because I SAID so". And then your child is going to feel like, even if you listened, you didn't respect his point of view and there's no POINT in explaining it because you're not going to listen anyway (I speak from experience, both as the child and as the "caretaker"/babysitter/big sister).
Granted, I *have* made decisions based on the fact that my siblings respond in a way that I can't argue (but that tends to be rare and only for something where I'd be *okay* with letting them have their way in the first place, but *prefer* if they don't).
Once, Rafael (who had already had a too-large piece of brownie) wanted another. I'd already said no, so I just ignored his response. At which point he lashed out with "your lack of response indicates your agreement with my point, so I can have another piece." He got one.
Once more, I believe it would be a good habbit for parents to get into to tell kids why they're not allowed to do those things they are prohibited from doing as much as possible. You yourself provided a concise sentence in which you are able to tell Tatiana exactly why she must get off the table. If Tatiana hypothetically made a really good argument for why she *should* be allowed to, she should get her way. Reasons are not typically difficult to give a child, even if they don't agree. It is better to give them a reason to disagree with (which would get grouped with the punishment itself) than to give them no reason AND a punnishment they disagree with. "Because I said so" gives a holier-than-thou sort of impression AND upsets for the above two reasons.
ReplyDeleteWell, like I've said, as a parent, dealing with kids is often either bad or worse. It can't really be worse this way, the kid's probably going to disagree regardless. People are self-centered beings.
It's difficult to be consistant about treating your children in the way you showed in the last example if you're going with the philosophy you've been arguing. What if it were more serious?
HaBit. PuNishment. ConsistEnt.
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to give a reason, but if Tatiana refuses to get off the table (she did hahaha...until I figured out that she was only ON the table because she couldn't reach the puzzle on the countertop; once I gave her the puzzle, she was quite content on the floor), and I don't see a reason for her to be ON the table, then there's ultimately going to have to be a punishment (or I'm going to have to make her, in some way). If she keeps getting on the table, I'm going to have to hold her on my lap for two minutes. Which IS a punishment.
Just the parent saying "I've heard your argument/reason for doing what you want to do/whatever, but I'm STILL going to assert my authority here" sort of...cancels out the fact that the child gave an argument and the parent becomes just as much the "feared dictator". And, since you can't physically force an older child to do their homework, you have to say "do your homework or you can't have video games for a week" (or whatever).
As I said, I only do that when I'd be willing either way but would prefer it if they didn't. (The dynamic is somewhat different with me. I'm NOT the mother and it was kind of clear in the situation that I was sort of unsure about whether to give them a second piece or not.)
If Rafael were asking me if he could......oh, I don't know.....something unsafe haha...it's still good to TELL him that doing whatever it may be is unsafe. But if he's asked me five times if he can and I ignore him the sixth time, and he pulls a "no response --> I win" argument, he STILL is not going to get to do what he wants.
I leave for a few days and look what happens.
ReplyDeleteThere's an essential disconnect here, one which we've missed so far, between kingdoms and families. Machiavelli worked with _human nature_ and its relation to _controlling_ people. While it still carries some relevancy, it's not the model we're trying to avoid.
When a prince deals with his subjects (according to Machiavelli) he is in constant knowledge of the fact that his authority depends on their consent, yet they are ultimately useless beyond that one significant point. If a prince must sacrifice his subjects for the sake of the principality, he must be willing to do so posthaste. NOT so with families. Would you sacrifice your younger brother for the sake of the family?
When the parent exercises authority for reasons the child does not understand / does not care about, keeping mind that the parent's job is protection and development of the child, the parent pulls out the judge card and coercion is unleashed. For the child's own good, one might add. It is a learning opportunity in which the child is shown that they have the wrong reasons for their actions. They must learn this lesson before they are told that they can negate these commands simply by arguing well. If, taking this scenario to its logical conclusion, a child finds that he/she can act with impunity for as long as they find good reasons to explain themselves, they will create exasperation between themselves and their parents, create more strife than is to be expected when the parents _do_ pull the judge card - thus negating the lesson expounded upon above - and will be a nuisance in life outside the family (school, college, work) where other people will demand cooperation instead of reason-guided self-sufficiency. How long could one hold a job if every time a project deadline was given, an equal and opposite attempt to push it further was made?
Now, this is not to say that no reasoning should be made at all. I would say that we (those currently posting comments) have crossed the line at which self-indulgence is valued under rational gain (I hope). My sister is not past this line, so it would be an act of foolishness to tell her that she can get away with anything if she has good reasons for it. Not because she's stupid, but because she's intelligent - but misaimed. I would with far less apprehension approve such a scheme for either of you (I don't see Pseudonymous around anywhere...XD) because you obviously seem to know what's best for you. Indeed, it represents another stage of the process of sending you out into the world to think for yourselves. But for a five-year-old? Not a chance.
Argh, character limit on posts = inconvenient.
ReplyDeleteSo, in response to your specific counterpoints:
Everyone should be taught how to use freedom of speech? Haha, no. Freedom of speech is an idealistic term for effectively lowering the quality of conversation. What we should have is a law against inhibition of free speech, but there's a theoretical, societal idea preventing _that_. Basically, if we let idiots talk all they want, in accordance with free speech, or write all they want, then we end up with clutter everywhere. I could go on about this for pages but I think I'll make a blog entry about it later.
Neither children nor parents are greater than the other, you said. Well, again, for a given value of equal. Children do not have long-term goals. The more naivety, the less realism, hence the decision-making process being governed by the _parents_. Children should be taught how to think by their parents, and only then be given this rite (haha) of debate. Or conversation, if you must. It even serves as a test to see if they've truly learned to think. Note that "think" here has a more specialized use than normally.
Lastly, that the child should be given the opportunity to express their thoughts. I was amused by your use of the word "wrong," but I'll let it pass. You're saying that (borrowing your syntax as much as possible), even if the parent ultimately makes the decision (and thus overriding the child), it's wrong not to let the child speak? There's an inconsistency here - if the parent and child are equals, why is it that the child has a right to speak but not to be listened to? And wouldn't this make the child only grow frustrated at his/her inability to actually utilize this "right" to make themselves heard? And this is even without the difficulty presented to the parents, who are constantly being second-guessed and faced with the mounting emotional difficulty of having to act contrary to their beloved child's expressed wishes even when they know that the cold, rational action is best for them.
Put shortly, you must realize that children may be "intelligent" (although there always seems to be the quantifier "for their age"), but they lack the experience necessary to make good choices. Therefore, those choices are made for them, with the idea that they can learn, in time, what I good choice is.
Patrice: In my blog on timelines, I said, "I imagine that God works somewhat like Cesare Beccaria. His punishment, or anger, is corrective. It's the way he reacts to the things we do to hurt ourselves, in our best interest." I believe parenting should work the same way. Holding Tatiana on your lap is preventative, and distinct from the type of punishment I shun.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe we have to do anything. True, sometimes extreme measures must be taken but hopefully they would not be the norm. It is better to ask the older child why he thinks he should be allowed to quit doing homework, and show him why his points suck (not him, but his points), thereby showing him why the parent is right. This is deontological and just as effective.
Inconsistency leads to hypocricy and bad reputations. It is inconsiderate and rude. Inconsistency is bad. There is no hard and fast line for deciding when one may let it slide and when one may not, therefore anyone is bound to become inconsistent (and it goes downhill from there).
Stick: I put in a very important preface dealing with most of your attack on the analogy. Perhaps it would help you to read it again: "It is well understood that an infinite number of analogies have gotten screwed up because the structures of Family, Politics and Theology have been confused with one another. In an attempted bypass of this screwed-up-ed-ness, I shall note early on that I admit that this is a very limited analogy. I mean only to address that which I quote here."
My point is that punishing children in a way that they simply feel pain for doing a wrong action is not corrective, it does not help the child. It helps whoever has to deal with the child's misbehavior. I'll bring my original example back up: the kid is watching too much TV and isn't getting his homework done. He puts up one hell of a fight after the parent calmly tries to reason it out with him, while he kicks and screams and has completely unacceptable behavior. Punishment is never fun, but sometimes it would be necessary. Which is the better punnishment: telling him he can have no candy for the next week, or telling him he can have no TV for the next week? Obviously, the latter: because it seems that it's the TV that is causing the bad behavior. It's preventative. The idea is to take away the thing causing the bad behavior, not just to take away SOMETHING so that the child fears the parent and will stop behaving in an unacceptable way. The idea is to teach the kid in a way that will last, not just make them hate the parent.
This argument is focused on kids aged 10 and up. This philosophy behaves differently concerning younger children.
I never said that kids should rule the family. This returns to the fact that I am not using ALL of Machiavelli. I understand that there is a substantial difference between politics and family. (For the most part) parents should have the last say.
The child speaks and is listened to. His idea is considered, realistically. Often children have acceptable ideas. In this case, their will should be granted. It should be explained to the child as often as possible why decisions for or against them are made.
So basically (not arguing here, just clarifying) you say punishment should "fit the crime"? (Taking away Facebook because I was using Facebook instead of doing homework is fine; taking away....oh....treats for the same reason is not, for example.)
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with showing him why his points suck. My problem is if the parent has destroyed the child's argument and the child still does not agree to do homework, then you are forced to step into a role as the "dictator" . (And if, say, my parents take away Facebook for me not doing homework, I'm not going to think "oh, well, it's for my own good". I'm going to think "That was mean she doesn't understand me". Regardless of whether I got the chance to defend myself.)
And I repeat that I'd said the dynamic is different (being that I'm NOT the parent, they usually DO have two pieces of brownie, and it was clear from my attitude that I wasn't sure whether to give one or not - which is why Rafael decided to pull a debate card to win me over).
It works well for younger children, actually (not AS well, but it's still functional). I once solved a major scene with a 2-year-old because I asked her WHY she wanted to stand on the table instead of just repeatedly lifting her off the table as I'd been doing (she had a logical reason - she couldn't reach a toy - and then just giving her the toy was effective).
And (as I become more and more a "caretaker" while my mom is not here) I have often asked WHY so-and-so wants to do things (I have a 2-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 9-year-old sibling, Stick) and most - but not all - of the time, this has served to prevent argument. It seems parents jump to conclusions without giving children chances to explain themselves too often.
A punishment should not be given for punishment's sake in the context of raising children. It should be given for corrective purposes. So if a kid is spending too much time on Facebook, they should be limited from Facebook. So yes, what you said is right.
ReplyDeleteA more specific scenario would have to be given for me to respond to this situation. It rather differs from case to case.
Okay, but you were playing the mother figure, correct? You were using it in the parental context here, anyways, this is a blog about parenthood, not about older siblings, so that's the only way it could have come up in the first place.
That was my point, that I'm focusing on older children, but it's applicable (in different ways) to younger children as well.